Have you seen the new Classic techniques?

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Have you seen the new Classic techniques?

(20 posts)

Started 2 years ago by JeffOYB
Latest reply from JeffOYB

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JeffOYB
Member

Check out catskier.blogspot.com. Dale Niggeman has invented what he calls the Cat 1 and Cat 1A. They're like V1 and V1A skating -- only they're classic -- the skis point forward. They're doublepole moves with multiple steps (like what I've been promoting at OutYourBackDoor.com).

Don Kane, an oldschool Michigan skier, says on the NordicSkiRacer.com forum that something a lot like this move was called the "Change-up" back in the day. Racer pal Dell Todd says another oldschool skier told him it was called Passganging, which was a surprise to me as I thought Passganging was a type of Diagonal striding mistake, where you kick and pole off the same side, but who knows, anything can happen!

Dale and another guy both started doing these DP moves independently on Cat "all terrain" classic roller training skis. Now they're using them in actual ski racing. (And all the while I've been doing them, too, for touring purposes!)

How long has it been since Classic saw a new move?

I've long been posting about alternatives to the basic 4 classic moves (which I abbreviate DS, DP, KDP, HB). I've said they aren't suitable for a fair amount of what dayskiers need, being too oriented to racing. I suggest adding a Delayed Diagonal (Late Kick), a 2-Step DP and various Pendulum Pole moves -- all these let you ski with an upright posture and/or with a daypack -- handy for sightseeing dayskiers on homestyle trails.

Like the old wood ski moves, the Cat 1 and Cat 1A don't use a lot of upper body motion, but they do use the racer's forward lean. They SEEM to use less torso compression than KDP and MUCH less than DP.

Dale says a benefit for racing SEEMS to be that you can use skating poles effectively in your classic events with these moves. So far he's measured some performance gain, but in other ways he hasn't proven them yet to be superior to the basic 4, but his data hasn't shown them to be any slower. He won a race using them, but he admits that he might've still won even if he hadn't. They're also unique in that they seem to train your skating muscles -- and, sure enough, even though he hadn't been ski skating he won a skating race (started soon after he won the classic event). Again, the jury is out.

Dale's vids are the first to show these "New/Old School" classic techniques! I've been planning my own YouTubes as well and will do them as soon as we get more snow. Maybe I can cover the touring side -- I'll surely add the pendulum poling moves into the mix. (It's a bit hard to describe pendulum -- you pump the pole basket forward of your hand to "use up" a phase of the timing. Anyone know what I mean? It seems like lots of folks have never seen it.)

Maybe it's time for a revival of the Classic Alternatives as well as some innovation based on those old moves. Could be fun times ahead for Classic!

Posted 2 years ago #
Cloxxki
Member

Excellent stuff, new moves!
Just a week ago I had my first proper classic ski experience. The short poles and diagonal arms kindof were the bummers of the whole deal.

Main plusses I see, as written, with these "cat"-niques:
- Long poles preferred, surely faster with no-kick double poling (and possibly starts?)
- More skate-specific muscles being used.

The technique for skate specialists toget some better classic results?

Another thing, would skis need to be flex-fit a bit differenty perhaps, it being all double pole? Perhaps a bit stiffer flex, for less drag. Or, a shorter kick zone, even?

Posted 2 years ago #
SickterScale
Member

you guys are famous hahaha
http://www.johnnyklister.com/

Posted 2 years ago #
Doug1
Member

deanerbeano-well done.

This thread is ridiculous. This "new" technique has been around for a long time, and time and again failed. It was one of the first "joke" techniques that i learned when i was in middle school, the double Kick
Double Pole as it is properly known.

So to enlighten you as to why DPDK doesn't work lets start
1)The leg that you kick with while poling is unable to properly kick the ski since in a proper double pole nearly the full body weight will be on the poles. This means that you either screw up your kick or your double pole.
2)It is an extremely aerobically taxing style. Try this: ski fast (5k-10k pace with someone of comparable skill. Find a long (2-3 min) gradual hill. Start out kick double poling, and with your partner as a guide to how fast you are going switch to DKDP. To maintain the same speed you will be working harder.

Cloxxski-
1)Longer poles=much poorer climbing while striding
2)If your first proper classic ski was last week, you have no idea of what is good technique and therefore no authority to comment on this.
3)There are absolutely no different muscles being used, and has no bearing as a technique for skaters
4)On any decent course there will be climbs that must be strode, or herringboned. nullifying any need to use a shorter kick zone.
5)GO AWAY

Posted 2 years ago #
Doug1
Member

Posted 2 years ago #
Cloxxki
Member

Doug,
thank you for your valuable on-topic response as well as re-confirming to me the hostile and elitist attitude to newcomers and any kind of change, as I've been noticing in the XC world. I am not trying to tell anyone what's best (I will certainly doso after I've built exerience to back it up with), but I can perfectly decide for myself what may work and what may not. I've been right enough times to listen to my instincts, I'd be (more) stupid to ignore it. I was right that skiing was for me, without having ever seen it in person. I had to book a long, far, $$$ voyage just to get to try it the first time.
Thanks, and enjoy your skiing.

Posted 2 years ago #
lsiebert
Member

Cloxxki, you are generally incomprehensible and annoying, not to mention occasionally horrifically bigoted.

It is clear you don't know what you are talking about. SO STOP TALKING.

We aren't hostile to newcomers. In fact, we welcome newcomers, and I think just about everyone here wants to see the sport of Cross-country skiing expand beyond its traditional base. We will be happy to answer your questions and provide you with relevant guidance. However, we don't particularly enjoy people with very little experience challenging our collective knowledge of a sport we have all invested a lot of time and energy into.

Please continue skiing. Please continue to read Fasterskier. But for something's sake please stop posting comments.

Posted 2 years ago #
OldManWinter
Member

lsiebert - You just nailed it...That is the promise of the internet; it gives people with nothing of value to say somewhere to say it. I just gave up on another forum for precisely the reasons you mention...While I enjoy sharing my experience and knowledgebase with these discussions, it isn't enjoyable having 40+ years of nordic skiing and racing experience challenged by a few that can barely stand up and walk on skis. I'll agree that newbies need a place to go, and FS.com is a great place to do that. However, as you mention a few of them aren't listening to themselves when they talk, and frankly it's annoying...

Posted 2 years ago #
imnxcguy
Member

OMG, Mr. Potter and Cloxxki together -- a match made in HEAVEN.
My recommendations guys -- make yourself Facebook Friends together and when you have something to say, just InBox each other! Easy!

Posted 2 years ago #
Cloxxki
Member

Jeff is a cool character n, but I'm not available for marriage, thank you very much.

Your attitude is kind of specific to XC skiing, as my in-your-face attitude has been welcomed quite differently in other sports and fields. Basically, y'all are full of yourselves when you're expecting other to suffer from that condition.
Experience, exschmerience. Is this sport a museum slash gentlemen's club, or something actually open for enjoyment and discussion?

Of the surprisingly very few people, out of hunderds of thousands participants of the sport, prepared to share any ideas or knowlegde online, an alarming high percentage are quite uptight or downright arrogant.
Actually, this attitude may be part reason for the few online participants. My ignorance and Jeff's difference cannot be accounted for all of this.

Cycling is relatively large online, and surely sour apples exist there, but the general athmosphere is quite different, especially towards anything off mainstream.

I dare say I am a bit of an authority in my former sport, mountainbiking, anf
d the specific points of my interest, and I hope I have not in thousands of posts ever been so condencending towards newbies or free thinkers.

If all comes down to experience and respect for tradition, why don't we all just buy the ultimate XC book and learn XC truth in verse form by heart?

How do you think skating eventually came to become part of skiing? You propably know way better than me, having been there deceades before it happened.

You need a mirror, and I may dress my future posts a bit differently to spare you the degrading words. I'll put them in your mouths myself.
Feel free to ignore me, I don't let someone's attitude or bullies in general get to me anymore.

Treat others as you'd like to be treated yourself, regardless of your initial feelings,

J

Posted 2 years ago #
crashtestxc
Member

If it's not in the Olympics or World Cup Circuit, it doesn't matter and is irrelevant! That's it!

May the master-blasters continue to push nordic skiing into the future...hoorah! haha

Posted 1 year ago #
JeffOYB
Member

DOUG1: "This thread is ridiculous."

?

D: "This "new" technique has been around for a long time, and time and again failed. It was one of the first "joke" techniques that i learned when i was in middle school, the double Kick Double Pole as it is properly known."

? Can you cite a print reference for this proper name of yours? Yes, parts of this technique are common, untaught, and also unexplored officially as far as I can tell. People just stumble onto it, or parts of it. But I don't think it's listed in any instructional material by any name. What Dale and I and others who like exploring technique are trying to do is check it out in detail. For instance, the Cat1 bears little relation to the "DPDK" you mention -- it's nearly identical to the V1 and probably not what you "learned" in middle school as it's less intuitive. The "DPDK" is more like the Cat1A.

D: "So to enlighten you as to why DPDK doesn't work lets start
1)The leg that you kick with while poling is unable to properly kick the ski since in a proper double pole nearly the full body weight will be on the poles. This means that you either screw up your kick or your double pole."

This is unclear as to why this is a problem. I agree that the kick and the poling aren't the same or as "sharp" as in striding or regular DP. But does it have to be? It might have different uses. And are the downsides so bad as to toss it out? Does it have any pros to go against the cons? It's neither DP nor striding and so shouldn't be entirely judged by those, but it has some of both plus its own uniqueness plus very close similarities to V1 and V1A. Dale suggests that it might be best for training for skating. As a classic move sometimes it's worse than the others, sometimes on par with the others, but better than them in rough/soft(slow) conditions. It's also a nice change of pace. Variety is good. And it's often smart, especially in a long event, on a long day, or on a technical/twisty trail. Actually, if you're skiing on ungroomed snow, how often do you DP? The Cat moves work great then. In fact they come on very nicely outside of the tracks. Sometimes this comes in handy.

D: "2)It is an extremely aerobically taxing style. Try this: ski fast (5k-10k pace with someone of comparable skill. Find a long (2-3 min) gradual hill. Start out kick double poling, and with your partner as a guide to how fast you are going switch to DKDP. To maintain the same speed you will be working harder."

A new technique takes time to master, no? Also, are there really such huge differences in exertion when moves are used where they're well suited? Sure, if something is not quite right, you'll shift to another "gear." But ski alternatives usually aren't "extremely" different if you're using them somewhat intelligently and have some mastery. Also, it's worth trying different grades and conditions. The Cat1A and Cat1 moves are suggested as gears, respectively, between KDP and Striding. So on a trail that's fast enough for KDP, use that. As it gets steeper and KDP starts to bog a wee bit (and starts in its turn to feel harder to do), try Cat1A. If you totally bog down or are using a ton more energy then it might not be the fault of the technique. (If you start to like it at all, try it a lot before you totally judge it.)

D:"Cloxxski-
1)Longer poles=much poorer climbing while striding"

The Cat1 pretty much replaces striding. Also, pole-length is largely in flux and relates to pole weight. Some people like striding with longer poles, or the benefits on other parts of the course outweigh the length while striding. Pole length relates a lot to style, eh? It's also a bit of a fad. Aren't they getting longer again?

"2)If your first proper classic ski was last week, you have no idea of what is good technique and therefore no authority to comment on this."

Authority? To *comment*? Whew... High standards. I see far worse violations around here than inexperience.

"3)There are absolutely no different muscles being used, and has no bearing as a technique for skaters"

? Some folks find the Cat moves to be excellent training for skating due to their near total imitation of V1/V1A and the fast cadence and sharp kick they encourage. And furthermore they can easily be used in any conditions easily. No skate grooming needed.

Certainly the jury is out. But early results are that they work in some settings for some things. They're tools for the toolbox. Also, they're fun.

Posted 1 month ago #
rbladel
Member

Is Dale still making and selling the Catskis? I haven't seen him or seen any marketing for the skis for over a year.

I have some, but confess to rarely using them.

There have been a lot of different techniques over the years, but only the competitive survive, at least to any great extent. Witness the "double push" skate furor of a few years ago, rarely used on skis. My good friend Peter Johnson can make effective use of the old heretical pass-gang stride (kicking leg and poling arm on the same side), but even he uses it very rarely in a race, and then just for variety, I think. Do what'cha want out there, but don't expect much of it to make it to the World Cup. The sport will continue to evolve, but revolutions such as skating in the early '80s are pretty few and far between.

Randy

Randy

Posted 1 month ago #
D. Diehl
Member

Fades will come and go. The skiers with the most visually pleasing techniques also seem to have the most fluid, powerful, and effecient techniques. In the 70's -80's look at Odvar Bra and currently at Johan Olson and Matti Heikinen for classic skiing perfection.

Posted 1 month ago #
rbladel
Member

I've been too paranoid to try Pirate Bay to get World Cup videos. My friend and great student of the sport Milan thinks Colonia (sp?) has a great classic.

Randy

Posted 1 month ago #
JeffOYB
Member

Yes, Dale is still making CAT Skis.

Very true that SDP/Cat1 is a minor move, maybe a good choice for racing in soft/slow conditions. But I personally ski a lot of self-tracked/ungroomed -- most people do (ungroomed being much more common than grooming) -- and it happens to shine there, while regular DP/KDP is barely usable. So I personally use SDP on every outing. Variety is the spice of life. It's another dance step. New/old moves that get brought out of the closet and buffed up aren't likely to replace the basics. No one suggests that. But they sure are fun. I would suggest that skiers should be comfy with all the alt-timings. It has to help you have a better sense of the basics. I bet Colonia knows the SDP! :) When I've skied with Euro dudes, they love to play. Like Lee B. says he knows 9 kinds of V1 -- I think those variants should be taught and familiar to skiers. Let 'em settle on their fave. I use at least 3 V1's. I'd be sad if some young skier thought there was only one. It's less fun. Kinda impoverished. Sure, your fastest way of doing V1 will come out when the gun goes off (actually, as the course and snow changes what's best can shift around) but that's no slam on the variants.

Then there's the skate training for narrow/ungroomed situations that the Cat moves offer. I think that's a neat development.

Posted 1 month ago #
kwikgren
Member

Innovative new techniques for backcountry skiing. Yah, sure, fine. But classic ski racing is a different story. There's a place in racing for skiing out of the track with splaying skis that glide - it's called FREESTYLE. You might be able to get away with cheating in smaller races or buried in the pack of the Birkie or Noque. You could probably use EPO in these races and get away with it also, nobody cares. If you pull that crap in a legitimate USSA or FIS CLASSIC race, you will probably be DQ'd, as well you should. These classic techniques are well defined in the rules. IMO.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
nordicguy
Member

In backcountry striding is going to beat this hands down. Now if your balance sucks then maybe it's a different story, but for those of us who no how to stride this technique:

1) Is slower than double pole kick or striding where either are applicable
2) Did I mention it's slower and that it would having you breathing way to hard. Skiing is about efficient movement, this is not efficient.

I go frog skate like a mofo. It's fun and it's great for breaking your poles but it would be a waste of time in my opinion to practice it. Most people could stand to improve their technique so I would suggest honing that in before practicing slower cardiovascular wasting techniques.

Posted 4 weeks ago #
campirecord
Member

What on earth is the point of this thread ? Yicks !

+++But I personally ski a lot of self-tracked/ungroomed -- most people do (ungroomed being much more common than grooming)+++

Really ??? Well I never saw it this way, then again, I ski on SKI HILLS not potatoe fields...

Posted 4 weeks ago #
JeffOYB
Member

The point? It's fun. It's not well know. Thus the point to mention it. It's not always right for a race, but handy to know just in case. Very handy (and fun) when not racing.

Illegal? Nah.

Sure, it's slower than DP or KDP "when those are relevant." ...It's faster when they're not. (Hint repeat: DP/KDP aren't relevant in soft/slow stuff up much of a hill.)

Try new things or not, your call.

Posted 3 weeks ago #

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