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FasterSkier Forums » Waxing

How do you get fast skis without hours of testing?

(18 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by Topher Sabot, Editor
  • Latest reply from campirecord

  1. Topher Sabot, Editor
    Key Master

    Here is a question that stems from my previous question on waxing. Many people were talking about their favorite brands and specific waxes. I used to have fast skis regularly, but as my skiing has evolved into a more recreational stage, this has changed. I don't have the time (and honestly, the desire) to spend hours testing different wax and ski combinations. Even if I wanted to, this is always a challenge on the glide front.

    I'm curious what other people's strategies are for getting fast skis at races without having a full support team or spending the day before endlessly testing.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. OldManWinter
    Member

    I have several strategies. They include: 1) Maintain a quiver of condition-specific skis. This is cheaper than you think. I’m of the John Morton ‘if it curves up at one end, is the right length and you can reasonably flatten it, then you can ski on it’ school. I shop relentlessly year-‘round…Ski swap meets, yard sales, discount sport shops. When I find something that fits, I’ll have them ground and specialize them. I found a pristine pair of Kneissl Star ‘S’ skaters at a yard sale two years ago for $35!Sure they aren’t new, but they go like stink and my wife loves them, so who cares? Now that I have dedicated skis for certain conditions, I have: 2) Become focused on meteorology. I find that the more adept I become at interpreting weather data, the better my initial guesses become and I waste less time testing. If you wax as close to the starting gun as possible and have condition-specific skis prepped for each side of the anticipated conditions, you are golden. Don’t trust the suits on t.v. or the internet (they rarely get it right for local conditions anyway). Get an air thermometer, snow thermometer and hygrometer and do it yourself. Finally, 3) ‘Buy’ yourself some time. Get as many of the best tools that you can afford. I went for years without a real waxing profile and paid for it in other ways…now I own one. Get a nice iron, brushes (roto and otherwise) and ski widgets that will turn 15 minute jobs into 3 minute jobs. I can assure you that you will get your time, money and life back. Hope this helps…

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. rick
    Member

    Tools: what is a real waxing profile?
    Thanks.
    Also how to you prepare hairies?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. OldManWinter
    Member

    A waxing profile is a work surface for ski preparation, typically with some sort of clamping device for the binding to secure the ski and prevent unintentional movement. It is formed ('profiled') to generally fit the shape of a ski and is intended to provide a solid, steady platform for ski work. Swix, Toko and a number of other vendors make them, and there are some nifty plans on the internet for making one of your own as well.

    Is your 2nd question: 'How do I prepare my hairies?' or 'How do I create a pair of hairies?' The answer to part 1 is that typically the abraded ('hairy') portion of the base is prepared with some sort of lubricant; silicone spray, spray fluoro or something of that nature. The answer to part 2 is somewhere out there. Personally, the only direction I have ever seen for creating hairies is in the 2009 Swix waxing manual, where they describe a process for creating hairies with different grades of coarse sandpaper. I haven't personally tried it, but I would like to hear from one of the faithful that have.

    Hope this helps...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Doug1
    Member

    I've made hairies out of normal classic skis when i forgot my zeroes. The main step is to rough up the kick zone of you ski with sandpaper. This creates the hairs that will give you the kick. i wouldn't go much courses than 100 grit. start there and work you way through maybe 3 progressively finer grits until maybe 200 or so. make sure to keep the more aggressive hairs in the middle of the kick zone while working less on the edges, just like you would taper your kick wax. The process is the same to prepare factory zeroes.

    Second, it necessary to cover the kick zone with either a pure fluoro spray or paste or a silicon spray in order to prevent the ski from icing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. edgarhee
    Member

    Here's a web link to a Nathan/BNS article on making "hairies" at the McCall World Masters:
    http://www.bouldernordicsport.com/Home/tabid/164/ctl/Details/mid/1776/ItemID/1117/Default.aspx

    In part, Nathan says:
    Hairies are made by aggressively abrading the kick zone and they work by physically grabbing the snowpack without any grip wax on the skis. The abraded base hairs are burnt using a torch to "dull" them so they don't collect water and ice up. In a wet snowpack around freezing, there is a lot of free moisture. If this moisture collects on the kick zone, it tends to freeze to the ski and the surrounding snow if the ski passes through a colder zone. This results in a block of ice stuck to the bottom of the ski, which tends to be not fun. After the hairs are singed with the torch, a chemical de-icer is usually applied. Swix FC8 liquid works really well for this, and Silicon spray can be used in a pinch.

    I used Atomic Multis that require sanding but not the torch treatment because of the kick zone material. After sanding I used Toko's fluro spray. They worked well on the first lap but I lost grip on the second lap as the tracks glazed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. OldManWinter
    Member

    D1,EH: Thanks for sharing. I have to ask - How did you handle the kick zone on your hairies? Are they significantly different in any way? I suspect that you marked your skis for a klister pocket, but that is only a guess and I'm curious what worked best for you. Much obliged. I found the link to the McCall WC waxing panic an interesting read as well. It hints at what it must have been like at the games the past couple of weeks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. edgarhee
    Member

    Re handling the kick zone on hairies. With the Atomic Multis, the kick zone is a special inlay of a different color (red) than the rest of the base. The kick one inlay feels different and is suppose to be a more "rubber-like" material than Ptex so that the hairs are more flexible and don't break off.

    My Multis kick zone is about 60 cm, 35 cm front of the balance point. The general idea is to increase grip by abrading the kick zone with sand paper - 150 for better glide/less grip and 100 for more grip. The 150 grit works well for new wet snow, but I'm still trying to figure out how course to go for tracks that glaze.

    You can also taper using the 100 or 120 grit paper under foot and the 150 at the ends of the grip zone.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. swl
    Member

    FasterSkier: Have you tried the Kuzmin or Primateria scrapers? By using a very sharp scraper that leaves the correct structure, it turns out you can actually skip glide wax. A sharp scraper will cut the PE molecules instead of tearing them off like stone grinding does. This leaves a much smoother surface that glides just as well as a waxed surface - except that it does not deteriorate.

    Nowadays I scrape and brush my skis about every 300 km. It's about 5 minutes of work per 300 km and I get at least as good glide as I used to do with the LF gliders.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  10. James Kyes
    Member

    First of all, I know that some people think there must be a conspiracy by big companies to make us buy wax, but lets be seirous. If it was faster to scrape your skis clean, it would be done on the world cup.

    I see two best tactics to get fast skis without spending hours testing,
    1. Have just super great skis, what does that often take, Hours and Hours of testing.
    2. Guess and get lucky.

    Obviously you can just have lots of experience and have a fairly good guess as to what will work, but that requires lots of testing to gain that experience, and then you are just guessing anyway...

    SO.. TEST.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  11. swl
    Member

    James Kyes: Yes, waxing will give faster skis if you have several pairs of differently ground skis to choose from, your skis are perfectly matched to your weight and technique, and your sponsors are willing to pay a really good waxer to prepare them for you while you sleep.

    The context was recreational skiing and how to get fast skis without spending hours and hours testing and prepping.

    Scraping has been extensively tested in here in Norway and especially in Sweden by many participants in e.g. Birkebeinerrennet and Vasaloppet. Many good skiers are very happy with their scraped skis, reporting new personal records and not seeing anybody with better glide during the whole race.

    Con: Not as good as a perfectly selected, ground and waxed ski
    Pro: Much, much less work, good glide that lasts the whole race (and a few hundred km afterwards).

    These scrapers are razor sharp and ground in such a way that the edge is slightly serrated, which leaves a structure in the ski base similar to stone grinding, but (supposedly) smoother at the microscopic level. When completed with brushing and rilling, the result is so good that only elite skiers seem to be able to notice any difference.

    My suggestion to a recreational skier who wants fast skis with the minimum amount of work would be to get three pairs, scrape them with either Kuzmin or Primateria scrapers, one each for cold, medium and warm conditions. Adjust with rilling as needed before the race.

    Anyway, there's no harm in trying this out, if it doesn't work for you, just have the ski ground, sell the scraper and forget the whole thing.

    Tip 1: I feel that the Kuzmin universal scraper works best between -2 and -8 degrees C, instead of the advertised +2 to -8.

    Tip 2: Scrape off most of the ground structure with a sharp, sturdy knife before using the scraper. Kuzmin advertises that each of the four edges will be able to scrape five pairs of skis. I think two pairs is closer to the truth. The scrapers can't be re-ground, while a knife is easy to sharpen.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  12. campirecord
    Member

    God, is that scraper nonsense still going on... Wasn't bad enough the first turn around ?

    1- ski flex
    2-ski grind
    3- wax

    keep that base greasy. Anyone seen how Kershaw got a gold medal at the Tour de ski sprints this year ? With a 12 year old pair of skis, no he did not scrape them. So please, go get some nice second hand quality skis with different flexes and test test test them. You will know which one goes fast. Reviving a one year old post with a Kuzmi ad is kind of funny... and you are reporting completely unchecked facts.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  13. tradesmith45
    Member

    FasterSkier, where are you skiing mostly? Also, what's you mix of classic/skate?

    An irony of coaching is I'm faced with the same problem as you but for different reasons. I've got so much to do for other peoples skis, I have little time for mine. But here in the Pacific NW, I face really different snow from other places in the US. Here, high moisture dictates my 100K wax strategy. If you live someplace with lots of old dry abrasive snow, you'd need a somewhat different strategy.

    I built a hot box for our team (not hard to do but NEVER build one w/ cheap space heaters) & it is the foundation of any waxing time reduction strategy. I can provide more detail if you are interested.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  14. swl
    Member

    campirecord: Yes, the scraper nonsense is still going on, and no wonder: Matti Heikkinen took the gold with Primateria scraped skis. Both the Swedish and the Finnish teams use them: http://www.primateriasport.se/Referensakare.php. According to people close to Primateria, the Finnish team called them in the middle of the WC to thank them: http://www.skidforum.se/viewtopic.php?pid=74457#p74457. Whatever else the Finns do to get the fastest possible skis we'll probably never know, but that they use Primateria scrapers and are very happy with the results is certain.

    My post was not a Kuzmin ad, I mentioned both Kuzmin and Primateria. Kuzmin is what I have tested personally, however, because the Primateria scrapers cost three times as much.

    It's interesting to note that neither James Kyes nor campirecord have any suggestions for FasterSkier except to reiterate the necessity of doing exactly what he wrote that he has neither the time nor the inclination to do.

    I can't see any point in discussing this any further, finding out for oneself whether this works or not is quite simple and costs about the same as a cheap pair of poles.

    Happy skiing :)

    Posted 11 months ago #
  15. campirecord
    Member

    As a sponsored athlete, I know very well about endorsement. I have a swix endorsement, love the poles, never use the wax... but you'll never hear me say that. That's how scrapers decided to start their business model. If it works, people will use it. My inetend was simply to say that a ski profil for a given snow condition as far more advantages to any trick you can do under it... and it doesn't have to be the latest amazing carboniumnuclear ski, so there could actually be a cost benefit there much higher than a scraper and a ton of fluor.

    My apologies by I have read so much BS from these companies in the past, reguardless if the product is good or not, that it's hard to take them seriously.

    BTW, I know a team sponsored by a croissant company, the croissant, oddly enough, does not make them go faster.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  16. nordicguy
    Member

    Did you know that human blood has been found to be the fastest substance to put onto your skis? It's widely known in the elite ski world, but the wax companies don't want you to know! I know many North Americans that have skied on the World Cup and used the substance with great success. Kikkan's World cup medals - Blood, Canadians Gold at World Champs - More Blood, Kershaw's podium at the Tour - you guessed it, BLOOD. The problem is it's so readily available that the wax companies have suppressed the information.
    I bet none of you also knew that Swix was behind 911, Roger Knight shot Kennedy, and Bill Koch forged Obama's birth certificate.

    You can read a forum talking about the value of human blood being rotocorked into race skis here: http://forums.fasterskier.com/topic/how-do-you-get-fast-skis-without-hours-of-testing

    Posted 11 months ago #
  17. zachhandler
    Member

    Kyes, Campericord, Nordicguy - I think you guys have to lighten up. Fasterskier asked a question - how to have fast skis without lots of testing - and swl gave his suggetsion, and qualified it by saying that it felt comparable to LF gliders. He didn't compare it to HF or pure fluoros. And he sure didnt mention any wax-manufacturer conspiracy theory. That was you guys who got all frothy about that. Why the chip on your shoulders?

    And no i dont have one of those fancy scrapers and probably never will.

    Posted 11 months ago #
  18. campirecord
    Member

    Charlie Sheen tried tiger blood and it was actually better.

    Zach, to be fair, the original post is very old and I was suspicious of the scraper invasion (which has happen in the past)and I think swl explained his reasons which is fine (I don't think any kind of soft endorsement is an answer to the problem).

    This being said, I still think my argument holds. Fasterskier would be better off having 2 types of skis (soft and hard) with a rather universal grind and work from there with cheap wax, that would be 100x better than any special trick (including powders... see Ièm not paid by the wax conspiracy). I do think that if he can get a good oven done on a layer of soft and cold wax. Not many people do that, soft oven, layer soft and hard and then a final hard oven, that will give you a rock hard base and shitfast skis.

    2 perfect pair of classic skis over 10 years is not a crazy investment, anyone with a perfect klister ski know exactly what I mean.

    Posted 11 months ago #

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