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FasterSkier Forums » Coaching

How to Help Skier Who Just Can't Get Hips Forward?

(30 posts)
  • Started 1 month ago by Jon44
  • Latest reply from tradesmith45

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  1. Jon44
    Member

    I'm working with a skier (in both techniques), and overall she moves along nicely and has become a fairly efficient skier. But... she still skis in a fairly upright position. Not terrible, but ever so slightly sitting back a bit. I feel she'd benefit if I could just get her to move her hips a little higher and a little more forward.

    We've tried every conventional trick / drill in the book, but nothing seems to stick. Can anyone suggest something more intense to "unstick" her from her current position?

    Thanks,

    Jon

    Posted 1 month ago #
  2. OEB2ODB
    Member

    There is a great video that patrick stinson linked to a few years ago. It's all in Norwegian, with a member of the team giving lessons to a youth rollerski group. If you can find it, it was fantastic.

    I heard Northug gets his hips so high and forward because he throws his off-leg so far back. To balance out forward hips, you need a foot behind you? now we get into issues of balance and core strength - but it sounds like she has both.

    What would happen if you practiced with poles that were extra long? might force high hands and the feeling to getting up tall on a ski?

    How is her double poling? For me, that seems to be the gateway for high hips because you don't need the one ski balance, and can focus on body position.

    Good luck!

    Posted 1 month ago #
  3. T.Eastman
    Member

    Make sure her classic skis are soft enough that she doesn't have to deliver a wallop to get them to kick. Then encourage her to bend forward form her ankles and make small glidey steps avoiding loading the glide ski abruptly. Small step, longer glide. A few days of this coupled with lots of no-pole skiing should help.

    Skating is funny since having hips forward when skating is not always the right way to be efficient, especially if the snow is soft. Work on the classic and what works for he when skating will become evident.

    There is no final form...

    Posted 1 month ago #
  4. genegold
    Member

    There is very little out there (or in this thread) that is helpful for teaching this to people who haven't already learned it via V2 in alpine skiing or in some other way, usually when very young. Vitrually all instruction I've seen - and I'm PSIA - has a problem presenting the matter dynamically. Learning as an adult, I had the same problem. Here's the approach that I happened upon that worked for me, and one that I've used repeatedly with students are having a problem (note: this method assumes a skier's ability to use visual imagery, which is not something that is in everyone's cognitive wheel house - learning styles and all that):

    - assume correct posture with or w/o skis on
    - find center of gravity/center of balance. For our purposes, that will be the halfway between the heads of the femurs horizontally and halfway between the navel and pubic bone vertically. For practical purposes, that means go directly below the belly button to the bottom of that roll of fat, and then mentally take that inside to the middle.
    - Imagine there's a fist-size shape or ball at that center point with a 3-foot arrow coming out.
    - Then move or ski the arrow down the track mentally, i.e., moving it in the direction of the next ski, stride after stride or skate after skate. Hence, it's like you're moving from this center point (core, center of gravity/balance, etc.), guiding the arrow ahead. N.B. This is *not* sticking out the stomach but rather imagining an extension ("arrow") coming out of the center, which one is mentally using to guide their body ahead.

    What this does is 1) cause the hips to rotate slightly up and forward very subtly (N.B. just imagining it causes that before even moving); and 2) leads one to move oneself from the center or core instead from the periphery (arms, legs/feet).

    Note: This is a drill, which must be practiced a lot, continuously, and usually through a few sessions until the new body position becomes a matter of habit. It creates the basis for using other, more advanced, keys of movement to be used (driving hips, knees, etc.). It also serves as a fall-back technique thought for steeper hills, especially in skating, when continuity sometimes breaks down, and in general, for technique self-checks.

    I have a single page PDF cheat sheet showing it graphically and with text that I put together from a Silent Sports series by John Burns several years ago (the series was way too long and complicated). If you'd like to see it, write me at genegold**[at]**fastmail *dot* net (get rid of the extraneous).

    Posted 1 month ago #
  5. rweston
    Member

    I believe it was either John Caldwell or Marty Hall that once said, "after learning the technique it's another seven years of practice til you can really feel it" and "truly understand it". So, imagine being a new skier and hearing all this stuff about your hips, it blows your mind. As too trying to teach new skiers to get their hips forward I found that the "hips back" position never appeared with any of the kids that started skiing and PLAYING ON SKIS at a young age and were active in a variety of sports. It would begin to appear with High school age skiers just beginning. For those High schoolers do a lot of games and drills on skis with no poles on all kinds of conditions so they begin to move natually on skis. This will help them overcome the fear of being actively forward. Remember, skiing is supposed to be fun and if all they hear is talk about their hips, that ain't no fun. I know it's our culture to want everything right away but if they want to ski like Andy Newell or Kikkan Randall it takes practice practice practice and then their own syle will emerge. You'll drive yourself nuts along with the student if your not careful. Lets not forget to :K.I.S.S
    Good luck-have fun

    Posted 1 month ago #
  6. Jon44
    Member

    Lots of great suggestions here so far--thanks.

    @OEB2ODB: Is this the video you're thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW6LS4tRaCk ??

    I mostly agree that classical is a good place to focus on this (though I also find, personally, the big rhythmic movements of V2 alternate help me get really far forward w/o consciously having to think of it.)

    And, also personally, I've found visualizations a great help (e.g., genie who is above and in front of you, pulling on the back of your belt), but worry that not a lot of others learn this way.

    And great rationale and suggestion for spending time playing on skis...John Caldwell would definitely approve.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  7. rweston
    Member

    Jon44, try doing diagonal stride stair bounding. Start by bounding to one step at a time. Landing on ball of foot with good forward arm extention and rear leg fully extended along with back arm extended. Once this is mastered do the same drill skipping one step each bound. Hold the landing position for just a second. Once this is mastered skip 2 steps. I used this drill 2-3x's/week up 15-20 steps each flight for 3 flights then repeat it 3-6 times depending on fatigue as part of a strength program.
    During the summer have them diagonal stride ski walk up alpine hills for 3000-7000 ft of vert. once each week.
    It won't happen over nite but as their ski specific strength improves so will their technique.
    Good luck, have fun.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  8. genegold
    Member

    rweston makes a good observation about young kids, but I very much disagree with his practice, practice, practice approach, and the various ways of doing that. The problem is, practice what? Either one has gotten down the notion of where their hips should be or they haven't, and if they haven't all the practice in the world is unlikely to do anything but reinforce the problem. It's like instructors that tell students they need to learn to better balance. Not very helpful.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  9. genegold
    Member

    For classical, I find the progression (w/o poles) of shuffling to striding as if in socks on a hardwood floor not only gets the rhythm right, but usually the body position as well. Preceding this with walking with poles only often helps that progression and later the transition to adding poles.

    Again, it's important to recognize different cognitive learning styles, since some people just don't respond to images, while others that do may not know the specific image one's projecting, even if they think they do (e.g., many people don't really know what jogging is, so one will see everything from walking to running).

    Posted 1 month ago #
  10. nordicguy
    Member

    A skier having their weight forward is a direct result of a combination of proper balance and technique. You can't just start using good balance because someone said so. So no I disagree with this idea that you just practice to have your weight forward (I don't like saying hips forward because that leaves out a lot of proper body position aspects)

    Teach a skier to have their weight forward, ankles and knees bent so that the hips are above their feet and the more they practice the more they can get into this position. They should be aware of trying to get into this position but they are going to have to practice practice practice to be able to do it. That is how skiing works and that is why it's not a sport for the impatient.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  11. T.Eastman
    Member

    GG, listen to Coach Weston, he has coached hundreds of kids and helped more than a few older grouches through the past 30 years. You must practice lots to get a better sense of how not to waste energy. Eventually you will eliminate lots of wasted motions. Too much is made by ski instructors about cognition styles and valuable time is wasted as the instructor tries to find the magic way into someone's head.

    Do you as an instructor understand clearly the mechanics of what you are trying to explain?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  12. tradesmith45
    Member

    Jon, I expected you'd get lots of great tips on a Sunday. I certainly have found much useful here - thanks all.

    Here's a few more things that have been helpful in my practice.

    I find that poor hip position is ALWAYS part of a whole complex of flaws that includes too much reaching forward w/ the hands & in skating too little vertical extension & in classic or skate incomplete weight transfer. Conversely I've never seen an intermediate/advanced skier with a good hip position but still having most of these problems.

    I make the most progress on these issues by going back to double poling- "fall like a tree" + "lock & load" + "pinkies to eyeballs" drills. Gradually hips get a little more forward, hands get a little higher & a little closer to the face.

    When circumstances allow it, video w/ immediate stop action replay is really helpful but time consuming. I plug my old camcorder into a portable DVD player for display.

    The next step - keeping the correct hip & hand position while the legs are moving takes time. The most progress comes after good weight transfer is achieved. Having the skier do a little hop at the end of each stride of classic or V2 is powerful but beginning skiers can't do that. So I still use click your heels drills for skate beginners.

    For classic, my favorite drill is fast striding down a slight decline. You simply can't keep a stride going & get the back ski off the snow if your hips are back &/or weight transfer is incomplete. The feedback is immediate.

    We have a very short 13 week season in our program. One of our kids who is starting their 3rd season is finally able to put together good high-forward hip skiing most of the time. That's the fastest progress I've seen. (BTW if you watch WC or Olympic video you'll see lots of elite skiers who don't get their hips forward much of the time.)

    People with lots of running or recreational alpine skiing in their background often are unable to correct these flaws in 4 years of our program. Alpine skiers usually have a well ingrained habit of sitting back & runners usually have very stiff lower backs that limits hip mobility needed for weight transfer.

    If your skier has these sports in their background, set your expectations accordingly.

    Hope this helps.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  13. OEB2ODB
    Member

    That's the video Jon44! Excellent work finding it!

    Part I is setting down a flat foot, part 2 is hips and hands forward and part 3 is engaging the poling motion from the abs/core and not the arms. Best 5 minute ski summary I've ever seen. now if only I could actually do those 3 things concurrently...

    cheers.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  14. genegold
    Member

    TEastman wrote: "GG, listen to Coach Weston, he has coached hundreds of kids and helped more than a few older grouches through the past 30 years. You must practice lots to get a better sense of how not to waste energy."

    The issue immediately at hand is not about wasting energy per se but how to get hips forward for someone who is having trouble getting it. The latter creates a base from which to ski - and practice - more efficiently. I question why should one spend years of practice doing it wrong - and lots of people do just that. Beyond that, I've never seen Coach Westin teach and you've never seen me.

    What first catches my attention in the video posted is how OBH counterposes landing with feet underneath the torso (hence moving from the core) vs. striding long, hence leaving the rest of the body behind. His compact poling position starting with the ab crunch is more of the same. Would love to hear a translation.

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  15. T.Eastman
    Member

    GG, kumbaya...

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  16. tradesmith45
    Member

    So what does good hip position really look like?

    I shoot video at a lot of our races to show the kids afterwords. I struggle to be sure I'm not being a perfectionist. Most demo video out there, such as the Nors clip mentioned here, is shot @ front/back or oblique angles which doesn't reveal hip position so well.

    I skied w/ & watched the USST this May while they shot this clip of an interval session. It shows both the skiing & how they shot the profile views shown during the last half min. of the clip. (I prefer to find a spot some distance from the ski track & pan to get good profile views.)

    I'd appreciate all of your comments about these skiers hip position. This might help clarify this discussion.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXMc02nR8Fo&feature=related

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  17. tradesmith45
    Member

    And here's a clip w/ drills to improve body position. The 5th or 6th drill of V2 w/ a hop is something I teach on snow (not pavement).

    Does this demo show good hip position?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wHmpGbs2Qs&feature=related

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  18. Jon44
    Member

    @tradesmith45: to my eyes, there's something off about the model's body position in the drills video. It's interesting, cause the hips aren't bad at all, but last few seconds of clip show that overall upper body has a swayback posture and so makes it look like he's not really "falling forward" from ski to ski (I wonder if he developed and got away with this bad habit due to his freakishly powerful thighs?)

    You can compare the model's posture to that of Per Elofsson (clip shows up as related on Youtube)--Elofsson is overall leaning forward into his skis and is also much more fluid and unhibited in his skiing (Model in Demo video doesn't bring hands past hip, for example.)

    @Gene: What struck me about the OBH video is that a random video of a random bike path in Norway still makes it look like a bucolic paradise. It's also interesting how some of the kids pick up what he's demonstrating immediately, while others are hardly getting any weight on their poles at all and standing quite upright on their rollerskis. To me this, speaks a bit to how a lot of good ski posture is linked to overall athletic ability and sort of basic body control skills.

    And, here's Stinton's original summary of video:

    -The first technique tip he gives is to flex hard at the ankles so it doesn’t cause a brake effect. Your boot should be behind your knee.
    -The second tip is to swing your arms in front of you very deliberately on V2.
    -The third tip is a good visualization of double pole or V2 technique. He says to press the stomach, hang directly down on the poles, and not push back on your butt.

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  19. tradesmith45
    Member

    Here at 55 sec. into this clip (the single skier in a white uniform) is a rare profile view of a sprinter doing V2.

    Does he have correct hip position?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HksXxzH55pw

    He certainly has good vertical extension of his torso & good hand position.

    Posted 4 weeks ago #
  20. rweston
    Member

    Jon44
    You nailed it!
    "good ski posture is linked to overall athletic ability". Amen. Your on the right track.
    "GG", your eagerness to help skiers improve their hip position is great. But, like it or not, those that want to be the best are going to have to train/condition themselves to become as "fit" as possible with increase in workloads every year for a long period of time. The advantage for those that begin skiing at an early age is they are free to focus on fun and developing a true love/lifestyle for winter time and the great outdoors. Their "early stage of development" is all fun/play. Active kids will get in over 200 hrs/year.(skiing,soccer,biking,swimming,hiking,running,jumping etc.) They don't need to be pushed when their really young just encouraged. By time they get to be 8-10 years old their skill level will be getting pretty good and they gradually start adding sit-ups, push-up chin-ups, agility, dips,stretching as part of thier active times routines. Along with some roller skiing. Not worried if their not perfect. By time they are in their early teens these fit kids are beginning to emerge as pretty darn good athletes. Now the training camps and learning how to set goals and how-to train and how-much all begins to come together and in just another 10-12 years of continued training they will be damn good.
    The kids that start as teens that maybe did'nt have such an active childhood seem to be the ones that have the most technique problems. Seeing themselves on video is the quickest way to help them correct or fine tune amy problems. Don't forget, they really need to work on getting fit so it's a real balancing act as to how to fit everything into the training schedule. Watching videos of world class skiers once a week/day before race is really important. Learning how to ride a flat ski and learning how to glide on it is a much bigger problem in this country than anything else. Taking a ski tour/back country every week-to-10 days on less than perfect tracks and on and on and on......

    Good luck to everyone. Be patient and things will work out.
    roger

    Posted 4 weeks ago #

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