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FasterSkier Forums » Coaching

Still Room for "Old School" Double Poling?

(7 posts)

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  1. Jon44
    Member

    I still feel unsure on the latest thinking regarding double pole technique. Pete Vordenberg says: "The initial impact of the poles is when the most force is applied to the poles and it is applied quickly – it is when the most power is applied. Wham!"

    What I wonder about is for skiers who aren't very powerful, is there still a place for a double pole technique that has a gentler initial impact, then gradually increases pressure as you go fairly deep with upper body?

    Has anyone shown the newer, more explosive technique to be most efficient for all skiers, or do you have to train specifically to incorporate it into your skiing?

    Thanks,

    Jon

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Howdy
    Member

    In my opinion a double pole "that has a gentler initial impact, then gradually increases pressure as you go fairly deep with upper body" does not have a place, ESPECIALLY for a weaker person. What you have to consider here is body position. I'm going to assume here that weaker means smaller build, and not just weak/unfit (for those, just get stronger eh?). For a smaller person, maintaining a good body position throughout the stroke is essential. This person cannot generate the large amount of force necessary to return the body to proper position fast enough to hold a decent tempo EFFICIENTLY.
    With a long double with lots of effort at the end, you are forcing your arms back, your shoulders down, and your ass behind (but high) your feet, all defining characteristics of poor body position.
    HOWEVER, if you initiate properly (notice I said properly, not powerfully), recover the hands quickly and WITH the body, your body position is maintained for the next stroke much better.
    The reason I didn't say powerfully is that I don't believe this has to be a "power" thing. Most of the definition of this style is not in HOW MUCH power, but WHEN. The timing of this application has changed enabling efficiency due to improved body position. To do it like the world cup skiers takes crazy power, sure, but they can also do it properly at much lower intensities and speeds similar to that which a recreational skier is comfortable with.

    Most athletes when coached properly will go into an 'old school' looking double pole with a long follow through on flats, but I can assure they are not gradually increasing the force, they are initiating.

    As for training, this is 90% a technique issue, and 10% strength. Find someone who understands the new technique and can teach it well. For the next couple weeks you'll be sore, but not because it takes that much more strength, but because it's a slightly unfamiliar movement.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. EricStrabel
    Member

    What Vordenberg said may have been taken out of context. USSA's education materials include a study that says differently at the link below. Scroll down to the "Biomechanical Analysis of Doubling Poling in Elite Cross Country Skiers" part.

    http://www.ussa.org/magnoliaPublic/ussa/en/formembers/athletes/education.html?tab=xc

    In a nutshell, the study says that less force at the plant and more force in the secondary peak correlated better to faster skiing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Jon44
    Member

    Thanks for the comments.

    @Eric: Vordenberg's comments came from a personal email (in response to a question I asked him on an article he published.) So, not sure how to square the two, as what he says seems pretty clear. ("Wham")

    Describing "old school" as increasing the force is probably innacurate. Probably a better description is you start with abs, and then try to maintain force as you accelerate, by adding in arms and body weight.

    So I guess my follow-up question would be to what extent are you still "falling" on the poles in the new technique (i.e., using body weight)?

    Jon

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. EricStrabel
    Member

    Jon, I think you should give the study a read. It answers a lot of your questions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. imnxcguy
    Member

    If a picture is worth 1,000 words, then a video is worth....

    The JohnnyKlister site had a hilarious (and incredibly informative) video on poling technique comparison. Check it out here:

    http://johnnyklister.com/2010/12/turns-out-technique-does-matter/

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Jon44
    Member

    Great video!

    This really clarifies it--I would call the guy on right's pole plant somewhat gentle, with a quick, snappy application of force right after the initial plant.

    I was never taught to double pole like on the guy on left, so maybe what I thought of as "Old School" is different. (Even 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure people were talking about making your forearm parallel with the pole, to force early use of abs.)

    Thanks,

    Jon

    Posted 1 year ago #

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