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FasterSkier Forums » Coaching

Technique Role Models

(31 posts)

  1. sailguy
    Member

    How do _you_ set your technique targets?

    Do you follow some country's national technique as taught? Do you follow some country's national technique as skied on those world cup videos that Basil Brush posts as torrents? Or do you choose individual skiers for role models?

    If you choose role models, who are they and why?

    For men, I use Andrus Veerpalu for classic, but am no longer sure why. I used to use Pietro Piller Cottrer for skate, but in 2010 he was waving his upper body more and fell out of favour. I am now using Marcus Hellner, mostly because he is more leg driven and that is one of my personal weak spots.

    For women, Charlotte Kalla looks like an obvious choice for skating, but even the other world cup women don't seem to be able to copy her. Marit is the default choice, but maybe I could do better?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. nordicguy
    Member

    You don't need to look any further than Andy Newell for some bomber technique.

    That being said, without some outside help/coaching looking at and videoing your technique, does it really matter who you are looking at?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. sailguy
    Member

    For some poor souls, I _am_ the outside help/coaching.

    I find it helps to show video of the student, then an elite skier, back to the student, and then finally to the elite skier to set a mental image of the goal.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. davidb
    Member

    I'm weak,old and wimpy, so I think Newell's/Petter's stuff may have little relevance. I look for someone really weak who, possibly, is doing it just with technique.

    I think Johaug for classic. And maybe for FS too. Yeah, I know she twists a lot in V1, but if you happen to be weak that can be your only option. (I do lots and lots of strength; still weak and wimpy.)

    Please comment.This is a great topic.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. rbladel
    Member

    My friend Milan Baic, who's a real student of the sport and a great technician himself, told me he thinks Dario Cologna has great classic technique.

    How, and where, exactly, do you find video of these folks on the web or the TV?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. sailguy
    Member

    shreddir posted instructions last year on using bittorrent to download XC video. I can't find his post, so here is my summary. You can still get all of the 2010 Olympics XC from Eurosport, the last two Tour de Ski's, and a fair amount of the world cup season.

    This summary is for windows, but other OS's are pretty similar. Download bittorrent for your computer. Make sure it is free and you scan the download for viruses. Any paid version of bittorrent _is_ a virus. Google 'cross country video torrent' and find lots of them (isohunt comes up first today). Carefully download just the torrent file (and NOT the dozen other links on the page). After installing bittorrent, double click on the downloaded .torrent file. Depending on how many cross country fans are on the internet, a race video will download in a couple of hours to a couple of days. Downloads will get dramatically faster after Basil Brush posts the first world cup of the new season. There are sometimes multiple versions; Basil Brush is usually your best friend.

    If you have kids, you might want to keep them off torrents, as there is a lot of less desirable content out there too.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Topher Sabot, Editor
    Key Master

    One thing that I think can be useful is for male "recreational" racers to watch the women (insert off-color joke of choice here). The reason for this is that for men, the women WC racers are actually skiing at a speed and technique per terrain that is more realistic.

    The male WC skiers are so much stronger and so much faster. Obviously the actual movements of the technique can be copied form anyone.

    Always important to look out for personal quirks in WC skiers.

    Newell is considered one of the best double polers in the world, and the fluidity of all his technique is unsurpassed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. lsiebert
    Member

    On the subject of torrents, I have used several different bittorrent clients on both Windows and Mac, and I find that for both operating systems the superior product is uTorrent. Its simple, doesn't hog resources, and works superbly. In order to find the links to the torrent files, use http://www.thepiratebay.org.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. davidb
    Member

    FasterSkier- Issues.

    For one: "Obviously actual movements of the technique can be copied [from] anyone."
    Really?

    And, "personal quirks" in the top WC skiers are there for a reason. The attention to detail is crazy.

    Re. Newell: You're entitled to your opinion, but that guy has tempo problems, and why does he always seem to drop his head on uphills?

    Want a great DP tutorial? Any Johaug YouTube video.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Topher Sabot, Editor
    Key Master

    Davidb - you completely misunderstood me - wIas pointing out that for a recreational man, watching how women World Cup skiers on different terrain is more relevant. But in terms of body position, etc anyone can be watched. So yes, really.

    And in terms of quirks, Daehlie always used to flick the tip of one pole forward. Should that be emulated - probably not. The great thing about skiing is that there is no one perfect way to do things, but different things work for different people. Jari Isometsa always skied with his head cocked to one side - should we emulate that? Was that an intentional "attention to detail?"

    And finally, Newell is widely recognized as one of the best double polers on the World Cup. That is not just my opinion, but the opinion of international coaches and athletes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. davidb
    Member

    FS Re. watching WC women, see my earlier post; we're on the same page.

    Body position? Justina Kowalchek in V2. Really?

    But who is this Daehlie guy? It's a totally different game now!

    And,"...but the opinion of international coaches and athletes." Uh, that requires some back up.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. davidb
    Member

    I probably should expand a bit on Kowalcheks body position. It's a "quirk," if that's the term, but I think it has to do with skis, possibly, and I think it's
    well thought out, completely deliberate and based on data. Still not a position I'd try to emulate.

    Johaug's twists in V1 are a quirk based on a lack of arm/shoulder strength.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. genegold
    Member

    Other than the torrents, and we'll have to see if they're available this season, keep an eye on From Sport for live streaming (http://www.fromsport.com/). If you find any, there are free apps for downloading it at the same time.

    I'm with FasterSkier on using the women more as models for technique, which I've done for a good decade. Kowalczyk has excellent classical technique and Kristen Stormer-Steira, along with Kalla, is very good for skating.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. davidb
    Member

    genegold: I agree with your picks; unless, of course, you happen to be old and feeble. Those guys are stong!

    With respect to my Johaug being weak suggestion, a Norwegian friend who follows this stuff, tells me she does pull downs with 130lbs! Myth, I suppose; she can't weigh much more than 100.

    Don't ignore Randall in skate.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. sailguy
    Member

    I used to use women as role models for middle-aged men and juniors, mostly because I found people like Thomas Alsgaard to be impossible to emulate for more than ten strides. In 2006, I switched back to using male role models for men. At the time, the men's WC technique was much more in reach and there seemed to be real gains in using the elbows out (pec enabling) double poling style.

    Lately, I have been picking video clips from 'easy pace' sections of longer races. I ignore sprinting: the WC men and women can afford to be inefficient in maximizing speed, normal people can't.

    In terms of overall power, there is no question that the women are a nearer fit. Men, however, have relatively more upper body strength; this means they can use shoulder strength to put more load on the stomach muscles.

    Isiebert, I would love it if you started another thread on torrents after the first WC is posted. Likewise, genegold could expand on torrent alternatives in another new thread.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Lawrence
    Member

    [Quote]: Classic for beginners mid shoulder. Helps keep the athletes on top of there skis with a rounded back for good technique. [endquote].

    I copied that over from a pole length discussion, because I think my response is more appropriate to a discussion of technique:

    What? A rounded back as evidence of good technique? How, exactly, can you defend that in terms of physiology?

    To me, a rounded back is a sure sign of poor technique, in any sport or activity I can conjure. It is evidence of immobility in the ribcage, limiting the necessary lateral travel of the ribs in respiration, it is evidence of tightness in the neck, interfering with neck reflexes and with all aspects of balance and co-ordination, it is evidence of the over-solicting of anterior muscles, and thus an inefficient use of the powerful latissimus dorsi – stop me here, because I can go on for a couple of pages like this – further, compressing the trunk by rounding the back will interfere with easy extension of the leg. (You see this hunching in many speed-skaters, but not in the better ones, like the Dutch. You can easily see the difference, but those with poor technique have massive thighs, those with better technique don’t, because the effort is distributed to the glutes, etc.)

    The arms in skiing are doing something very similar to what the arms of a freestyle swimmer must do. Once the pole is planted, the arm does not move – the body extends forwards from the point of support established by the pole. A swimmer obviously would not benefit from “rounding” his back – the task is to extend forwards from the arm. Maybe a pull-up gives a clearer notion of what I mean. There is absolutely no benefit to be gained from artificially contracting the anterior muscles to raise the body in a pull up. Like in swimming, one wants the arm pull to be along the line of the trunk, not curving it forwards (or backwards). The lats can and should do the lion’s share of the work here, assisted by the pectoral muscles if the trunk is rotated, as it is in classic technique (not in V2, somewhat in V1).

    The idea of loading the pole, so prevalent in ski technique advice, is kind of like a kid gripping a pencil too hard – it gives an illusion of control by generating increased muscle sensation. In truth, if your idea is to move yourself forwards with your arm, you will need no muscular preparation – the muscles that need to work will do the job they need to do as the action loads them. Any preloading is just unnecessary hardening, and will be very inefficient.

    So, just because winning skiers round their backs does not make it good technique. You can see poor technique in winners in all sports. Athletes with less than perfect technique have to work harder to overcome their bad habits, and they may just be strong enough to do it. It doesn’t make them good models.

    I think that one thing important to remember in choosing to imitate someone, is that the most salient aspects of what you see are the faults – hunched shoulders, elbows way out to the side, and rounded backs. When someone has really good technique, it looks like nothing: Usain Bolt looks like he is jogging, Roger Federer looks like he has all the time in the world.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. sluggingsammy
    Member

    davidb, I agree completely with what you are saying about Newell. As the speed decreases, like in hills, I start to cringe. Though you have to hand it to him at high speeds - no one else manages their high speed as well as he does. This is obvious by his success in flatter sprint races and usually coming up on the leaders as they come into an uphill, which sometimes creates the "got cut off" situation.

    Johaug pulling down 130 lbs? Sounds reasonable. Just 30% more resistance than doing one pull up.

    Lawrence, I like what you have to say except for the swimming comparison. A swimmer may work productively through a 180 degree range of motion in the shoulder, heavily relying on the latissimus dorsi, but the skier has much less available range of motion to work in. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 degrees. Like comparing the muscle used to do a full pull up vs that of just the upper quarter of one. Working from 45 degrees to 0 degrees in the shoulder focuses more work on the teres major instead of the latissimus dorsi. Also, compare the difficulty of doing a pull up (full or upper quarter) with the elbows (not the hands) kept at shoulder width vs letting them go a little wider. By letting the elbows go wider, the teres major muscle can do a better job. H.C. Holmberg et al, in the biomechanical study of double poling, found that faster double polers used more teres major than the latissimus dorsi. The lats playing a large role in powerful skiing is a myth.

    Understanding what good technique is, is not magic. It isn't done by focusing on buzz words from people with impressive titles. It isn't done by copying the image of successful skiers; (if that worked, we'd all know the secret ingredient to Coca Cola from the taste).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. prairiekid
    Member

    For skating the one and only Ole Einer Bjorndalen and women I would say Therese Johaug. For classic I am not sure but Therese looks very efficient in both if you can keep her tempo.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Lawrence
    Member

    sluggingsam: Thanks for weighing in. I still believe that overuse of the teres major would be the fault, preventing the much more massive and powerful lats from doing the work. I think that many skaters fail to extend the body well off of the ski, and that this is why they compensate by using smaller muscles excessively. Excessively long poles encourage being too vertical in the trunk, I think. The teres major can do very little, as it only attaches to the scapula, forcing other relatively small muscles to stabilize the scapula. What I think we want, is a very mobile scapula (which is what you see in climbing and swimming). Much better if all of those muscles give way to let the lats work.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Lawrence
    Member

    sluggingsam: One more point. You write about 45 degrees of arm movement. If the body is well extended off of the foot (which is what vertebrate locomotion is: an extension of the body from a fixed point), then the reaching upper arm should reach at least perpendicular in relationship to the trunk. Thus, we have a good 90 degrees of movement available -- the more powerful part of the freestyle stroke. Here the fault would be pushing the arm back, rather than continuing to extend the body from the basket. The hand should not fly backwards, but should finish the powerful stroke pretty much in line with the trunk.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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