Hey folks - I have a pair of Salomon RC Carbon classic boots and have had a serious amount of foot pain following long sessions. The pain stretches from the ball of my foot through the arch on both feet. I attribute it to lack of support and the flexibility of the sole. I use custom orthotics already. Are other people having this issue? What can I do about it?
Also - Has anyone come up with a solution to the Pilot bindings icing up issue?
I wouldn't necessarily attribute this to your boots. I use Salomon RC Carbons, but for skate. I also have fairly neutral feet, in that I rarely injure them. I find that a lot of the time I do have nagging pain, proper strengthening of that area and recovery cured it. My unprofessional advice is to take more rest days for your feet, do more balance drills, and to use a tennis ball to massage the arches of your feet.
Since you asked, I'll pile on some more unprofessional advice (full disclosure: I'm not an M.D.). I don't have all the facts in front of me, but without asking I know you have had foot problems before since you already have orthotics. Presumably, they weren't made just for your striding boots. How are your feet otherwise, like when you are running, ok or no? Since you only mention your striding problem lets assume the problem is restricted to skiing and the classical range of motion. Asking others if the boot is a problem is pointless...Salomon will never 'fess up to messing up your feet anyway (trust me, I tried this years ago with Nike and got nowhere). What you describe sounds vaguely like plantar fascia, a nasty bugger I'm told and extremely difficult to get rid of. Imho, your best bet is to get to a good sports medicine doc/podiatrist for an evaluation. Your orthotics may need rework, and if you are flirting with plantar fascia you want a treatment plan asap because it won't go away on its own and if it escalates you can find yourself in a position where you can't even walk without severe pain. It took my wife (a dedicated runner) 1.5 years to get rid of it, but she was adamant about going the non-surgical route and finally found a top local D.O. to help her get past it.
Now, to the Salomon bindings: My inside source (I have to protect them; they advertise on this site) tells me that Salomon already realizes that they punted the design and are already re-engineering the binding for next year. So, I think you're hosed 'til then. Have you tried the usual suspects, silicone spray, etc???
I am going to vote along with OldManWinter, in general at least.
Plantar fascitis (spelling approximate) fits what you are describing better than a particular brand of boot. Classic is very hard on feet and knees, and is one of the few ways to put a high load on your plantar fascia while the PF is stretched. Early treatment is key for PF.
For the pilot icing, I use a very simple solution: Salomon Profil (ie, the non-pilot, non-elite priced binding). They don't ice and are much easier to get in and out of in spring conditions. Some people find that skating is difficult without pilot, but I learned to skate on Adidas 38mm, so I am happy with 'reduced performance'. Pilot boots work with profil bindings, but not the other way around.
Sailguy - I can tell I'm not the only 'OldMan' plying this forum!...I wonder how many of us remember the blue-and-white, under-the-ankle Adidas boot? Likewise, I learned to skate on those as well...Great days they were...
I'll bolt on to your comments regarding the Salomon solution. If changing the binding is an option for dvoisin ($), then it helps to know that the three-hole screw pattern is the same for both Pilot and Profil...no need for redrilling there. Another new hole will have to be drilled for the Profil ridge plate, but that is minor work. I'm also not a huge fan of Pilot bindings. If you ski alot on a small quiver (ahem), the screen-door type springs get punched out and eventually weaken. Then, the whole back of the ski drops while skating (just like the old 38mm Adidas solution!). At that point, if you want the ski close to your heel when skating then you are into it for a new pair of bindings because the springs aren't replaceable. Not so with Profil...you simply pop the two silver pins holding the rubber bumper and swap it out (approx $6/pair). My juniors were shocked the first time I did that...none of them knew. In as much as the foot pain is concerned, I know of one HS coach that strides in Salomons with the bumpers removed completely (I am not making this up). So, if that diminished forward resistance helps at all, remember you heard it here first.
I had a pair of Oakley slip on shoes that gave me the same problem. Mine took about 8 months to go away, it basically was a bad shoe and wearing the shoe simply aggravated the condition. I agree with the above comments of perhaps having your orthotics refit. I know that my Salomon skate boots put a lot of pressure on my arch a few years back but once I got new orthotics the pain went away after a few sessions.
As far as the Salomon classic pilot bindings go, they are not very good right now. they ski and feel nice, but jam up really easily. Hopefully they'll get the next design better
The skate bindings are a different story. In my opinion they are excellent. I have significantly more control of the ski and a much better feel. Also, i have not seen in the slightest the weakening of the spring that has been mentioned even on my oldest bindings on my rollerskis. bear in mind that i logged well over 100 hours on them last year alone, and I've had them for 5 years now.
Thanks for the beta. I have been seeing a podiatrist of and on for about 4 years and a sports-centered physical therapist for that last 3 months. I have many issues - a nueroma in my right foot, patella femoral syndrome in my left knee to name two. Neither the doc or PT have diagnosed Plantar Faciiatis for me. The two worst occurrences that I have had with it have been at last year's Craftsbury Marathon when I did not have enough time in the boots and the springs in the bindings were no longer function and one a recent classic OD roller skis after a summer of only doing double poling on roller skis. Hopefully it's just a matter of strengthening the muscles/tendons in my arches over some shorter classic sessions. I would have thought that all the ski walking/bounding I have done would have been sufficient, but maybe not.
Hi everyone. Full disclosure, I work for Salomon. First to dvoisin, it sounds to me like muscle/tendon strength, and possibly flexibilty issues. The fact that it doesn't happen when skiwalking/bounding seems to rule out planter faciiatis. For most people, the balancing muscles of the feet are used much less walking/bounding/running than when skiing or r-skiing.
As for the binding issues. We are indeed working on a solution. For now, try these steps:
-wipe all snow off the boots and bindings before you put the skis on.
-spray silicone spray on the rear attachment (like lubing a bike chain)
-don't store the skis in the cold (eg. ski box or outside, or even un-heated garage). When the snow melts inside the binding it will re-freeze causing the spring to freeze up.
-check to make sure the binding is mounted flush to the ski and is not hanging off of the side. If it is not mounted correctly, snow can creep in under the binding.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
-KJ
dvoisin: You are not alone. Many folks have problems with the Carbon classic boots. I used to think that I could wear anything and my feet would not hurt. But then I bought a pair of Carbon Classics and they killed my feet. I tried adjusting them every way I could. I tried inserts and orthotics to no avail. I always had pain quickly when skiing with them. I finally pulled the plug on them, sold them and bought a pair of the RS classics (the next step down). They fit me great and there is no pain for me like with the Carbon classics.
Solution to Salomon binding problems: Use Profil instead of Pilot, just like Thomas Alsgaard chose to do. Less moving parts = more reliability and less surface areas that can ice up.
A couple of comments/questions re kjnordic's comments re the Pilot bindings. How do you mount the bindings flush with the side of the skis when my Pilot binding back plate is slightly wider than the width of my Atomic WCCs?
Second re silicone sprays. Do any of the silicone sprays have carrier fluids that are detrimental to ski or binding materials? I.e. any solvents?
dvoisin: I have learned over the years that the human body is a game of millimeters, and it doesn't take many millimeters to really throw it off. I would never advocate training while injured (see the ibuprofen forum), but if you are so inclined I would 2nd Tim's and further suggest that you try out a friend's NIS rollerski setup to see how it treats your foot. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything and if it does then say something nice about me at my funeral. Tim: I'm with you; the Pilot isn't a binding - its a Rube Goldberg-type contraption/ solution looking for a problem. They built a battleship to do a tugboat's work. They have really pushed me over the edge with this year's 'Rev 2' sole. I will retool my kit...but not with Salomon boots and bindings...
OldManWinter: I think the basic fact in the industry is that product development for xc gear hit a plateau earlier this decade. Now we are primarily seeing marketing gimmicks to sell skis, and not product advancements that give a significant return, in speed or quality, for your investment. The industry will likely continue on in this trend until the next paradym shift in product. When that will be – who knows. Until then we will see continue to see BS like holes drilled in ski tips, bindings becoming more complex and heavier and boots made even cheaper (I’m currently sewing a new zipper into a pair of Salomon boots I just got last year, which were replacements of a previous pair that fell apart … not fun). And of course, we will continue to be barraged by endless glitzy hype from carnival barker industry reps and sales reps that drool marketing rhetoric fed to them by the manufacturers ... to try and sell their latest gimmicks. I'm not falling for the BNS, Bull N Sh*t. My 6 year old skis with Profil bindings work fine. I'll buy new skis when they truly make them better (or a lot cheaper). ;-)
Sounds like a lot of anti-technology on the forum here. Sure some changes are gimmicks, but for the most part skis, boots, poles are way better than 10 yrs ago. What is happening is that a lot of the equipment is being specialized for racing and not necessarily making it good for the average skier. Not every skier needs to use the top end race boots or skis, they are for the top end racers. Especially with the boots, they have made them much tighter and more form-fitting (like hockey skates a size too small) for the top racers to get maximum performance. The average person (the other 98%) don't really benefit from the precise fit and would much rather have a slightly more forgiving boot. Alpine is the same, don't buy an ultra-stiff world cup boot if you are a beginner.
Some of the great developments are ultra-stiff poles, NIS binding plates (can't wait til Salomon gives in and uses the same standard) lighter skis, more variety of ski design (zero, soft track, wet snow, etc)
Regarding the foot pain, it doesn't really sound like plantar fascitis to me (a non MD but often injured opinion). If it was you would likely have shooting pain in you foot when you first take steps in the morning (the most typical symptom) as the PF will shorter during the night hence why night stockings that stretch the foot are often a treatment. And to the suggestion that it is Salomon's fault but they won't fess up, that is a strange way to think. Every single person has different feet, especially if you are using orthotics. What works for one person might not work for another, has nothing to do with Salomon making a good or bad boot. In general classic boots have a more flexible sole to allow a proper motion for the diagonal stride, skate boots have a much stiffer sole to transfer the lateral power needed. It makes perfect sense that classic boots would cause a problem and not skate or running shoes, especially for someone with foot problems (assuming the orthotics are for a problem and not just for fun)
I would dispute that. Nordic ski equipment over the past 10 years has diminished in every respect expect price. The bases on my wife's Madshus cap skis (now, cap skis were around 10 years ago) are so thin and flimsy the ski is ungrindable. What is the logical end point of this 'progress', disposable $600 hole skis? Don't get get me started on boots...They are, as Tim stated, heavier and cheaper (Tim - Btw, I've had to restitch a pair of my Salomons as well. Try reinforcing your stitching w/ ShoeGoo. Great stuff...I have even patched my wetsuit with it). As to that 'strange' thinking, didn't you note elsewhere in the thread how quickly someone else noted the same problem? None of this would bother me typically, but even the lower price points aren't cheap. This stuff is liking shopping health insurance...the prices are competitive, but they are all competitively high. Typically, I don't like to complain without a solution, but here my hands are tied. In a fit of frustration, I got on the phone w/ Trek's marketing department a few years ago and pleaded with them to employ their considerable composite know-how to build an American product. The conversation didn't go anywhere so Lance, if you're out there somewhere listening, we need you. I'm afraid that until the Chinese or Koreans start building quality nordic gear we are all stuck. In the interim, I have decided not to hold my breath until the industry settles on a standard boot sole...
OldMan - While I can't disagree with you on prices I can't say I really understand what has gone down in quality? Skis have gotten lighter and faster in the past 10 years. Boots have definitely gotten lighter and that is not debatable, that is a fact. They are lighter and stiffer. The carbon in both skis and boots cuts weight, increases stiffness and durability.
Some of your equipment is being made in China so I don't think that is going to solve the price problem. Anyway interesting discussion to read.
I also have to disagree that equipment has gone downhill in the last 10 yrs. I have skis that are 8yrs old that still work like they were new, been through the grinder generally abused and barely even have a blemish on them. The skis I've had in the last 3-5 yrs have all been great, certainly no quality issues or premature breakage.
On the boot side I have to agree with nordicguy, boots are lighter, stiffer and have more features then what was available 10yrs ago. I also have boots that are 5 yrs old that are sill perfectly fine after many summers of rainy roller skiing and hundreds of hours on snow each winter.
Sure they make some poor products, but the vast majority of products are of very high quality and much better compared to 10yrs ago. I've never personally had any problems and out of the 100's of skiers that I work with I can only think of some isolated issues. (unless you are talking about madshus or some atomic skis) Most of the world cup skiers still keep some pairs of 5-6yr old skis but that is that special pair of skis, most of the races are won on relatively new equipment. If skis from 10yrs ago were better every world cup skier would go out and track down a bunch of old skis from previous racers.
With regards to the Pilot Bindings: we have had a lot of experience with them, and silicon spray does not seem to resolve the issue completely or improve the situation significantly. It does not hurt to put it on, though, and spraying the straps is standard procedure for us on Pilot bindings that we sell.
The problem seems to be more prevalent when skis that may have some moisture trapped in the binding have been taken from warm indoor settings and go straight out to ski in situations where there is cold, fine-grained snow. The fine-grained snow seems to bond to moisture on the Pilot strap and cause the icing.
With respect to Tim Kelley's comments, tim, please send me an email so we can discuss what issues you have with what it is that we are saying that is BS. I'd love to hear your comments and have an intelligent discussion about it rather than being slammed in a public forum. nathan -AT- bouldernordic dot com.
I believe Marty Hall said somewhere at FS.com "...but we continue to go faster...". I can't dispute that. But when I consider all the reasons why I am going faster, equipment is at the bottom of my list. My nutrition is better(marriage), I train smarter (age and experience), I race smarter (experience again). Waxes have improved a lot undoubtedly. Pole shafts have as well. That aside, I wholly agree w/ Tim that there have not been significant technological inroads to justify the outrageous prices. Seriously gents, this stuff isn't that complex. How much can you reengineer a baseball bat or golf club? How much of this 'skatecut, holeski, excelerator basket, Pilot binding' nonsense do you expect me to buy into? We have really moved away from the original topic of this thread, which served to remind me that it is still is the motor that matters most. I test gear whenever I can (that means a lot), and I have to say I have not demoed a 'gee whiz, gotta buy it' ski item in years. I simply haven't experienced the added benefit to my skiing that parallels the added expense.
I would say that gear has improved hugely since the days of the Adidas 38mm OldManWinter remembers so fondly. I hated those things, one slight error and the ski rolls over under the boot. I don't miss the old narrow pole straps (and the stress fractures that went with them).
Not every 'advance' is a good one, but my newest skate skis are faster than the previous year's model in a dramatic way. The advance in camber design in skis has been spectacular, but it is pretty hard to see if you aren't doing a lot of speed testing.
I once heard Pietro Piller-Cottrer say that then-new pursuit races were very unpleasant because it was so difficult to ski 15k with the wrong boots (I have paraphrased). If he can whine about gear (despite skiing faster that I can even dream of), I feel I can obsess with a clear conscience :-)
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