FasterSkier Forums » Waxing

1. tradesmith45
   Member

   Hi all,

   Unlike the great FS banner pic, we are having late winter conditions here in the NW. Mt. Bachelor nordic will be open 'til June 20! I was skiing on VR40 last week. I'm hoping to do some significant warm kick wax/klister testing & would like to have a good info share here to help focus that testing.

   First some context. We usually have moist to very moist fresh snow or klister conditions. A "dry" day might have an RH of 60-70%. Dry, old, untransformed snow is rare. I own fluoro & conventional Swix, Rode & Start MFW kickers, all Swix & a few Rode klisters + just got a Rex Proline violet to test.

   As we all know, the snow temp range -1 to +1C is really at least 3 snow conditions - below, at & above freezing. And this is why Zeros/harries are used. We haven't been able to get any of these for our HS team so I'm trying to get better @ waxing.

   So lets start with a few questions:
   Have you found a kicker that often works both sides of 0C?
   Have you found the fluoros always work better in this range?
   What condition causes you to try a klister or klister/wax mix in this range?

   The latest Swix Nordic Ski Prep booklet has a whole section on kick waxing for zero-conditions. Have any of you tried these waxing tips?

   Here's my 2 cents. Both Start blue & violet MFW klister-wax always provides good kick in snowing moist 0C conditions. There is only a little difference between the blue & violet & they are much easier to apply than klister. Getting good glide out of them is the hard part & I'm still testing cover waxes for that. In 1 test w/ snow temps of 30 to 33 w/ sun, shade & snow showers, violet MFW had more glide than Rode fluoro violet over fluoro red w/ similar kick.

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. tradesmith45
   Member

   Thanks in advance!

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. rbladel
   Member

   Ian Harvey of Toko taught us a trick to try in these conditions: a thick application of Toko green binder, thick enough that your kick zone looks green from across the room, I used this with success at the classic Birkie a few years ago, when we had new snow overnight in the tracks around freezing. I think I covered it with a bit of Rode multigrade or something like that. Covered klister was much slower that day.

   Toko's binder is the only one that you can actually ski on by itself sometimes, which is why it's the only hard wax binder I will use. (In fact, it's the only Toko kick wax I use, but don't tell Ian.)

   Randy

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. tradesmith45
   Member

   Thanks Randy. Do you remember what the conditions (air-snow temp) were at race time? My experience is Rode hard waxes tend to have great glide in moist new snow.

   Your Ian suggestion is why we use Toko binder exclusively. As I recall, that was the wax of the day for the Jr. Nationals in Maine this year.

   I tried thick Toko binder when it was changing from snowing to raining. Snow temp. 33+F. Didn't work, Silver klister worked & Rex violet Powergrip didn't. Haven't tried Toko binder @ 32 & snowing but will now.

   I'm wondering if the purpose of thick binder is getting more pressure on the kick wax rather than the binder wax needing to be thick to grip?

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. rbladel
   Member

   I don't recall the exact conditions at that Birkie, but I know I tried three pairs of skis with klister, which I then covered, hard wax, and the covered binder, which was fastest and still kicked. I know there was fresh snow in the tracks. Ian was there, and may recall. I should keep a log. It must have been the 2008 Birkie.

   Randy

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. tradesmith45
   Member

   Got a question for you Randy (or anyone else) about Toko green binder. My stick of Toko binder is an earlier vintage w/ a clear plastic container rather than the current yellow. Anyone know if Toko reformulated the green binder when they changed the container? Mine is from the early days when Toko was making separate versions of the kickers for old & for new snow. Several of the Swix VR kickers & KR klisters we have were reformulated in 2007.

   Thanks

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. rbladel
   Member

   I noticed the same thing. In addition, I recall the old clear container had a temperature range on it for some reason. I don't know if it was reformulated. Perhaps Ian Harvey could answer that.

   I have it from Dave Ford, another Toko rep from the Winthrop Valley, that the Toko kickers will come in only yellow, red, and blue, just like all of the Toko gliders except X-cold powder.

   Randy

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. ianharvey
   Member

   Hi gang
   The Toko Green Binder has not changed for the last 10 years - despite the package changes. It is our only grip wax that has not changed.

   Some clarification though on when to use it straight: it works best straight when snow conditions are between klister and hardwax. The idea conditions for it are when it gets cold overnight and the tracks are a mix of ice crystals (tilled up) and powder such that a kick wax would be slick but a klister might ice. It kicks bomber and if you keep it off the snow (klister length application), it'll run fast of course.

   Thanks
   Ian

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. tradesmith45
   Member

   Thanks much Randy & Ian for the details.

   Have yet to have anything like violet kick wax conditions here to test green binder on. Had another winter storm w/ 18" & snow temps in the 'teens. On Friday, snow went from blue kick wax in the morning to covered violet klister after lunch.

   But w/ 15' on the ground who's complaining!

   The national teams will be here later this month.

   Hey Ian, a fellow coach here told me he has used Toko spray kick wax & silver klister mixed for 32, snowing & hi RH w/ success. An old Toko hand book I have recommended silver klister & Toko yellow? wax corked together. Can you comment on these?

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. rbladel
    Member

    It's obvious from the plethora of possible wax solutions to try at freezing that there is no one solution. Have you ever looked at a temperature plot vs. all of the waxes available? As the plot approaches freezing, the number of waxes seems to increase exponentially.

    You might try Rex Powergrip. It comes in a tin like hard wax, but is kind of jelly-like, especially the violet, and needs to be ironed in. It's likely to ice in fresh-falling snow, though.

    Yow long are your HS events? Rather short, aren't they?
    Perhaps you could just hairy-up some conventional skis. I think the only advantage of Zeros is that the hairies last longer than on regular P-tex. I think I read a review of "hairy"skis somewhere saying the Peltonen zero equivalents did not have a special kick zone insert, and were quite fast.

    Randy

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. T.Eastman
    Member

    Ian has discussed this before, but I will re-state that skiing in zero conditions require a good skiing skill set to manage the pronounced changes in grip that occur. So while testing waxes and skis, don't forget to test the tricks needed technically to keep the skis moving. Zero conditions are the post-doctoral level for xc skiers.

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. fredo38
    Member

    I've a kind of newbie question. Skiing with crown alternative ski could be an asset or not so bad compromise under zero condition? Some people told me that i can forgot crown if i'm looking for performance.

    Frédéric

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. rbladel
    Member

    Dear Frederic:

    Yes, I think there are still times when a good pair of well-fitted crowns are a good option. I used them to good effect at the World Masters in McCall, and also in the '09 Great Bear Chase. That day the snow was old, dirty, and transformed, with a light misting rain, temp near zero C. the crowns worked as well as the klister pair, but the klister was picking up a lot of the jack pine needles littering the course in many places, which I suppose was sort of a waxless pattern by itself. Anyway, I went with the crowns, and was quite pleased with them.

    Randy

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. tradesmith45
    Member

    Thanks Randy & T.Eastman. I hear the voice of experience from you two.

    Yup Randy, there's too many choices in this temp range - that's why I started this discussion. I'm hoping collective experience can narrow the choices some. So hearing about things that don't work is just as helpful!

    I made a run at Rex Powergrip a couple years ago. I found violet Powergrip is harder to apply than klister & matching wax thickness to conditions is really important. If you get it wrong its hard to correct. Randy, have you tried using another wax over Powergrip violet that has worked well to correct icing but still keep the grip? I got it right once in 31F fresh snow & had great kick but slow skis. Swix violet was faster that day but had lousy grip unless you got out of the track & ran on the fresh snow.

    I've found the Powergrip blue can be crayoned on if you get it cold first & then corked but it doesn't get smooth w/o heat. I saw another coach try layers of Rode Super Blue & Powergrip blue for 31F moist new snow but w/o success - little grip & slow.

    A lot of new materials are being introduced for Zeros. I tried a pair of Atomics several years ago on a red klister day & they were slow. I rewatched the 2010 Olympics men's 4x10 where Zeros were used. Both classic legs had 2 min. slower times than the 10k times for the men's 30k pursuit & 50k where they were on klister. Also, during descents on Zeros, all the skier were totally equal - no gains, no drops. Not sure why Zeros were used for the 4x10. Perhaps there was a chance that it would rain rather than the big fat snow flakes they got. Looked like perfect Rex OI conditions to me. If you watched the raw video feed for the 4x10, the wax techs sure were spending lots of time prepping & testing the Zeros.

    Frédéric, my understanding is the new Zeros are faster than crowns but my experience of an older Zero was it was slower.

    So now that the topic of Zeros/harries has come up, here's a couple basic questions:

    If waxing & skiing in "32 & what-do-you-do" conditions is the post-doc of skiing, what are the conditions were you give up on wax & go to Zeros/harries?

    Every wax brew I've tried so far for zero conditions that had reasonable grip produced slow skis but I've not had Zeros to compare to. But based on my limited experience Zeros are also slow. So in zero conditions, are we really only choosing which kind of slow skis we are going to use in the choice of waxed vs Zeros??

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. fredo38
    Member

    In my ski club (in French Alpes) some people speak about me on a way to manage zero condition.
    This methods just need sandpaper (no wax) as 120 or 80 and you brush the kick zone. May this look like a zero ski. But you can do this with your klister ski. This should be enough to retains your in uphill and glide should be maximum.
    What do you think about this method?

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. rbladel
    Member

    Dear Frederic:

    Yes, you are making "hairies", or zero skis that way. The hairs created this way on regular ski bases may not last very long, though. The advantage of the kick zone material that is sanded on manufactured zero skis is that the hairs last longer.

    Randy

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. fredo38
    Member

    In the case of snow falling or not compacted snow, i've read than no wax ski like Fischer RCS crown could be also an asset? Ortherwise, ambitious competitor does prefer some hard wax "white?"?

    Posted 1 year ago #

18. T.Eastman
    Member

    "Zero" conditions are all different. Issues with the temperature differences between the high and low points of a course come into play. Rain down low, glazy track at mid-elevation, and drier powder up higher... Oh My! As a citizen skier, you will not have all the data points that elite skiers and wax techs in big international events have to help make their decisions. Find the workable compromise if your courses involve lots of vertical. Well lubricated Zero skis may be just the trick.

    I ski mainly at Cypress outside of Vancouver, BC and have done most of my skiing the last decade in "Zero" conditions. While I might not choose to race on my Zero skis in all the "Zero" conditions, they are adequate for training most days and they insist on good technique. So while Zero (hairies) skis may fill a very specific race niche, they are fine for day in day out skiing in the coastal mush.

    Pouring rain is simpler since klister is the obvious choice... this make for a kinda twisted perspective when you see the snow shift to rain and you get psyched.

    In fresh falling very wet snow Rode Special Red can work as can the Rex Yellow that was discussed.

    Soft hard waxes like those discussed earlier seem to be very dependent on ski flex. Spend lots of time identifying the best skis for these waxes while you are sorting out the alchemy of wet snow.

    Posted 1 year ago #

19. tradesmith45
    Member

    These are great responses, thanks. We seem to be branching into 3 topics:
    -around freezing hard waxes,
    -above freezing klisters,
    -Zero skis.

    Let me ask a couple follow up questions.
    For wet snow & rain there is a choice of brand - Swix, Rode, Rex & etc. but Swix & Rode also have both plain & fluoro klisters. Have any of you found a consistent difference between plain & fluoro klisters or between any of the brands of klisters for moist conditions? For hard waxes, I've found the fluoros nearly always have a broader range. Not sure about the klisters.

    I've found that Swix KR60, K22 & K21 loose a lot of grip as soon as there is free water in the track - its turned grey. I switch to KR70 at that point. But I need to test KR70 against Rode & Rex.

    T,Eastman, I've had a hard time sorting out the Swix VRs 60 through 75. Are those what you are referring to in your last paragraph? In the old days, Speical Red, Red Extra & Yellow Klister Wax were pretty simple to figure out. The soft VRs all seem to work a little AND are usually slow. But my current classic skis (2008 RCS) have a medium length & low wax pocket. I don't currently own what we have called a klister ski. Are you suggesting that a high & defined wax pocket would work better with the soft hard waxes?

    My general experience w/ Swix & Rode hard waxes is Rode is nearly always faster in moist snow but Swix catches up in dryer snows - RH<50/60%. But I've certainly seen a plain Rode violet be slower than the VR in moist new snow.

    Guess I'm going to have to buy a pair of the new Zero skis, all my experience with these is now way out of date. They certainly have an advantage in highly variable conditions. What surprised me about the Olympic men's 4x10 where Zeros were used was the lowest & highest points of the course showed exactly the same snow temp - 32.

    As we've all said, there's certainly lots of choices in these conditions!!

    BTW, those of us who ski in the rain are by definition twisted -:)

    Posted 1 year ago #

20. T.Eastman
    Member

    Tradesmith,

    It always seems to take a few tries to get the warm hard waxes figured out. I can usually pick a wax pretty well but in the 0c and above zone, all the factors such as time since grooming, if is snowing, sunshine, wind, and length of steep climbs, among many, need to be checked each time.

    Swix seems to have so many waxes in this range that one usually works really well. Skis are really a huge deal and there is lots to this that falls into that zone like porn, you know it when you ski it! Something in between a normal ski and a klister ski might help (and also be good in long classic races because of wax retention), but find some expert to take this up with.

    Get a pair of Zeros and figure them out.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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